Human Flourishing, Bipartisan Policy, and the Future of Education (with Katherine Haley of Oak Rose Group)
In this episode of the Knoodle Founders Hour, host Rosaria Cain sits down with Katherine Haley, president of the Arizona State Board of Education and founder of Oak Rose Group, to explore how strategic policy, educational accountability, and purpose-driven leadership can transform civil society.
An Arizona native with deep roots in public service, Katherine spent over a decade in Washington, D.C., including seven years as chief policy advisor to former U.S. House Speaker John Boehner. After navigating high-stakes bipartisan negotiations on Capitol Hill—ranging from D.C. school choice to global health initiatives—she returned home to Arizona in 2021. Today, she balances her appointed role leading the State Board of Education with running Oak Rose Group, a strategic consulting firm dedicated to advising donors, incubating high-impact nonprofits, and championing initiatives that foster human flourishing.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
- Navigating the Pillars of K-12 Governance: How the Arizona State Board of Education serves as the regulatory backbone for state academic standards, accountability letter grades, and oversight of the Empowerment Scholarship Account (ESA) program serving over 100,000 students.
- Championing the Science of Reading: Why mastering literacy by third grade is a critical predictor of high school graduation, and how Katherine helped lead the effort to mandate K-5 literacy endorsements grounded in phonics and word formation for Arizona educators.
- Tackling Chronic Absenteeism Post-Pandemic: The lingering impacts of COVID-19 on family trust and school attendance, and how proactive principals and educators across the state are building community connections to bring students back into the classroom.
- Incubating Ideas for Human Flourishing: How Oak Rose Group operates as a convener, connector, and builder—incubating stackable credential workforce programs at Arizona Western College, expanding private school options, and supporting democracy-building philanthropy through Spirit of America.
- The Power of Bipartisan Coalition Building: Lessons from Katherine’s Capitol Hill career on why meaningful, lasting policy progress relies on building authentic cross-aisle relationships rather than engaging in performative politics.
- Faith, Family, and Finding Grounding: A candid look at Katherine’s multi-generational family legacy of entrepreneurship, her recent run for statewide office, and how her faith, tennis matches, and listening to literary classics keep her grounded.
Policy advocates, education leaders, and purpose-driven entrepreneurs will find immense inspiration in Katherine’s thoughtful approach to civil society, leadership, and systemic change.
Listen to the full episode of the Knoodle Founders Hour podcast to hear Katherine’s expert perspective on shaping educational policy and driving generational impact.
Full Transcript
Announcer 00:02
Welcome to the Knoodle Founders Hour, where we go founder to founder with host Rosaria Cain. Today, our special guest is Katherine Haley, president of the Arizona State Board of Education and founder of the Oak Rose Group. Her past experience included seven years as a chief policy advisor for former House Speaker John Boehner. Please welcome Katherine Haley.
Rosaria Cain 00:22
Good morning, Katherine Haley. Thank you for joining us.
Katherine Haley 00:25
Thank you, Rosaria. I’m glad to be here on the Founders Hour.
Rosaria Cain 00:28
Well, I appreciate that. And you’re president of the Arizona State Board of Education. A lot of exciting things happening in the educational world in Arizona. Give me an elevator speech on the state of Education for K through 12.
Katherine Haley 00:43
Well, thank you, and yes,I serve as president of the State Board of Education, and for our viewers, for those that don’t know, it’s an appointed position. There are several roles that individuals sort of sit. There’s community roles. There’s a teacher representation. There’s a superintendent, county superintendent, charter school representative, community college university president. Our elected superintendent, statewide superintendent, sits on the board. And I was honored to be nominated and then confirmed by the state senate, but nominated by Governor Ducey in 2022, and our role at the state board of education is really to serve as the governing body, the regulatory body of laws that are passed by our legislature, and we provide the guidance for our Department of Education to help implement those policies and ideas all the way down to the local level, so we have responsibility of our state standards. So, what are we supposed to know in math? What are we supposed to know in reading? We oversee the civics requirement. You have to take a civics test in order to graduate high school. We oversee our state accountability system. So, what are the letter grades? And I’m happy to expand upon that. We’re in the midst of some pretty significant reforms right now. We oversee educator discipline as well as educator preparation. So, we have a pretty far range of roles and responsibilities of managing grants, making sure that things are implemented, and then making sure that the department and therefore our communities are implementing that policy.
Katherine Haley 02:31
We have oversight of the Empowerment Scholarship Account, which is the Big School Choice Program. More than 100,000 kids participate in that. We approve the handbook, which serves as a contract for families every year, and then when there’s mispending, we are the ones that put individuals in corrective action. So whether you must pay those dollars back, or, if you don’t, we’re going to send you to the attorney general’s office. And so we have a pretty broad brush of responsibility. I would say there’s a lot of really great effort, but we do have a long way to go. Arizona individuals will say that Arizonans, we as a state, do not spend a lot. We spend on average about 15 to $16,000 per student. When you look at the numbers nationally, we’re sort of in that bottom 5% of student performance, and I would say we have incredible bright spots. We are a very diverse student population, and a lot of English language learners and students with learning challenges, but in the midst of that, we have individuals that are working very hard. But we do also have quite a ways to go.
Rosaria Cain 03:48
So you have some challenges. So for the lay people in the political world, you’re pretty much big picture, setting policy, looking at it as in a bigger version. The superintendent of public instruction is doing more day to day granular details.
Katherine Haley 04:08
Yes, and even more so, you look at our school districts. Individuals will often come to the state board and say, “Well, what about this curriculum? Curriculum is actually decided at the local level, not at the state level, and so you set a framework of what needs to be taught, and then it’s up to the local school board as well as the local school superintendent to really figure out what that curriculum is, how it will be carried out, how it will be implemented, and so yeah, we are very much the bigger picture, setting that framework of where our students and our children and our schools need to be going.
Rosaria Cain 04:44
Well, what grade would you give Arizona education right now? And big picture, that’s great because you’re looking at the whole view. You probably see everything in a bigger landscape.
Katherine Haley 04:56
I should have mentioned at the beginning, all of these views are my own. They’re not necessarily the views of the state board. I think we have incredibly hardworking educators and principals and school leaders. But when you look at whether or not our kids are performing and knowing what they need to know, I would say we’re pretty average. Unfortunately, it might not demonstrate that by our letter grades. We have a high percentage of individuals that are schools that are getting A’s and B’s, but that’s largely because we have a significant weight of growth. The individuals get bonus points, and this is super technical, but they get a lot of growth points, and I think that’s important, particularly when you have students that are very far behind. You want to show that they’re making progress.
Rosaria Cain 05:47
Give them a little encouragement.
Katherine Haley 05:48
Yeah, yes, but that might mean that they’re still not reading on grade level. It might mean that they are not at grade level for math, and there’s significant consequences for that, both in building that knowledge foundation so you can succeed later on in life, but also just assurance that you’re doing the right things. So I would say I would give us an average grade collectively because I know people are working very hard, but we do have quite a ways to go.
Rosaria Cain 06:17
What are the state’s educational priorities?
Katherine Haley 06:20
I think a couple things. First and foremost, K through three literacy is certainly a buzzword and is something that we’ve talked about all across the country. If kids are not reading by third grade, the likelihood that they’ll graduate from high school goes down precipitously. We have had excellent policy on the books going back to 2011. Move on is one. When reading is a policy we’ve had in the books that if you’re not reading at third grade, you’re not going to progress.
Katherine Haley 06:52
Unfortunately, we also have lots of loopholes. Like if you have an individualized education plan or a 504 plan that you need additional assistance, or you’re an English language learner, or you’re on the bubble. You might get passed on, even though you’re not reading at third grade. In 2022, as a result of previous policy we finally required, I put the onus on our schools of education. We finally required that our schools of education and our educators that are teaching in our classrooms, that they have K through five literacy endorsement rooted in the science of reading. This is phonics based education. This is not just guess, and hopefully you’ll figure it out, but really understanding the sights, the sounds, the understanding of word formation, and and how a young person is building that foundation to be able to read not just know words and sounds on a paper, but really read to understand, so that they can become a lifelong learner. It wasn’t until 2022 that the board passed a policy, and this was Herculean effort. So this year, our schools of education required any elementary educator to have that credential. For all of our other educators, it’s not until 2028, so two more years, that they have to have that credential, so we have had policy on the books since 2011, and yet many of our educators do not have that foundation, and it’s only now that they have that, and that I think has been a tremendous disservice to our children and, frankly, the next generation. On top of that, part of the move on reading policy is that you have to have a strong literacy curriculum. Again, it’s not until probably next year that all of our schools, our K through 12, or specifically elementary schools, will have to have that component, that literacy component of a strong curriculum based in the science of reading implemented. So you can have great policy on the books, but you also need all these other levers in order to successfully implement it. So all of our kids are positively impacted. So many different elements, and I think that has been one of the greatest joys of being able to serve on the state board is seeing policy in action and building those coalitions to move our state in the right direction.
Rosaria Cain 09:30
And yet, there have been some setbacks, generally speaking, like COVID.
Katherine Haley 09:33
Yes.
Rosaria Cain 09:34
Really, really did a disservice to our kids. Well, and their parents. I mean, everyone kind of was in it together.
Katherine Haley 09:42
I appreciate what you said that, I mean, what’s interesting about that? I think for many parents, parents assumed that their kids were learning certain things, and it came to light maybe my school is not teaching my child in the way that he or she should, and being a state that offers so much choice and opportunity. Families have really began to exercise more options that are available to them because they really want to find that best learning environment. I think one other thing that was really interesting is that trust that families had with their schools. Families began to see sending my kid to school is just optional, and so chronic absenteeism has been something that Arizona has really struggled with. We’re starting to see that number go down, even six years later after the pandemic. Chronic absenteeism does continue to persist, and it’s really, I would say, the bright spots, and they are all over our state. You have it in Nogales, you have it in and outside Tucson, you have it in different parts of the Phoenix metro area and the Valley, where you have leaders, principals, educators that are proactively going after families and saying, we offer you a great learning environment. We want you here. We want to inspire you. We want to teach you. We want you to be great, have that foundation so you can be successful in life. And it’s because of those relationships that I think those schools have done a great job and close that gap. But there are others that I think are still flailing, unfortunately.
Rosaria Cain 11:23
What’s stopping them from jumping back into school or having their kids there?
Katherine Haley 11:29
I think it’s a variety of reasons. Sometimes it’s just own family dynamics. Let’s say you have younger siblings, maybe you have a multiple generation household, and you need that student to help care for a family member, or maybe mom or dad is working and they can’t get you to school. And so I think there’s that, or oh, I’m sick. You know, back in the day, you said my kid was sick and he or she needed to stay home. Well, it’s just easier. I’ll just keep them home rather than send them to school. So I think there was that trust that families began to see. Well, is it really? Do I need to send my child? And then I think others. You also have families that are like, well, we want to go on a trip, and we’re going to go on the trip. So, you know, instead of my kid being committed with homework.
Rosaria Cain 12:19
It’s a commitment.
Katherine Haley 12:20
It is. It really is. And so, I think there’s a variety of different reasons.
Rosaria Cain 12:26
Wow, I didn’t realize that was such an issue. And then now, beyond the Arizona State Board of Education, you also managed to be the founder of a company. Yes, the Oak Rose Group. So that’s what you do in your spare time.
Katherine Haley 12:38
That consumes a lot of my time. Yes.
Rosaria Cain 12:41
I was kidding. Okay, tell me about what type of strategic consulting you do.
Katherine Haley 12:46
Yeah, so Oak Rose Group. I founded it when I moved back to the Valley in 2021. I’m an Arizona native, born and raised, but had been gone for quite some time. And when I moved home, I really wanted to combine my personal life experiences. I’d been in public policy. I worked on Capitol Hill for many years. I had worked in philanthropy, helping to advise donors. I loved the creative problem solving, and so I was like, “Could I start something that combines those experiences that helps advise donors, helps advise nonprofits? And so I started Oak Rose Group, and our mission is to promote the policies, ideas, and organizations that lead to human flourishing. And you’re like, what does that mean? We serve as a convener. We bring people together. We want to make sure all the voices are heard in order to successfully either pass a policy or stand up an organization. We serve as a connector. So for the strategic plans and the board governance that we do on behalf of nonprofits, we’re always connecting them to others in their field or to potential philanthropic support. We also do a lot of building, so we help build new things for our clients. Someone might come to our team and say, “I have this interesting idea. We’ll do their feasibility study, and we will literally incubate that idea and bring it to life. Everything from the board to the fiscal sponsorship to helping to attract philanthropy, and so it’s been such a joy. I would say our team, our success has been largely because of the incredible team that we have. It’s just an incredible gift.
Rosaria Cain 14:31
Well, tell me about your team.
Katherine Haley 14:32
Yeah, always from the very beginning, I didn’t want to start an organization that was just about myself. I’m very mission oriented and team oriented, and also know my own limits. And so, I had colleagues that I had gotten to know in different facets of life and different parts of the country. And so, I have several business partners: ones in Chicago, another ones outside the Denver area, they have long-term experience in fundraising, political campaigns, issue initiatives, launching new initiatives, growth strategy, and so together we joined up. We had a couple other business partners along the way too, but you know, environments changed and priorities changed, and then we have some amazing client advisors that bring some real concentrated strategic support. These are women who have been in the policy or nonprofit or philanthropy spaces that bring a unique perspective that our clients just love. And then we have associates that really help us manage and serve as those project managers. So everyone brings unique skill sets that are all complementary in order for us to help achieve the goals we set for ourselves, but also for our clients.
Rosaria Cain 15:54
Well, I know you said you’re mission oriented. What is your mission in this organization?
Katherine Haley 15:58
Yeah. I mean, it’s the flourishing of society, and so you know we want…
Rosaria Cain 16:03
Kind of like another renaissance?
Katherine Haley 16:05
Yeah, I think we have clients in the education space, so it’s making sure families are in the best learning environment that meets their kids’ needs. So we have helped incubate and launch a number of funds around private school options. We’re in the midst of doing a CEO search for a new private school growth fund. We’ve done something similar in Catholic education. We’re also working in civics, so helping create a civics renewal, particularly in higher education. You know, promotion of a more traditional liberalism, like lowercase l of classical liberalism of diverse ideas and how do you hold those ideas in tension. We’ve worked on projects around workforce readiness, so helping Arizona Western College and Yuma reimagine what does it look like if we’re going to train the next generation. Do you have to take a class or a series of classes over multiple semesters to get that credential, or can you be there for two weeks, gain that credential, have it supported, and use it toward stackable, like a stackable credential that would earn you eventually a degree and allow someone to have a more nimble experience in higher education.
Katherine Haley 16:05
We’ve also had experiences of supporting clients that Spirit of America is a client of ours, and they, what I would say, is almost a, how would I say, democracy building philanthropy. So they raise capital to help advance the goals and the mission of the United States, in partnership with our military as well as our foreign service. So they are buying trucks for the front lines in Ukraine. They are helping to buy drones, not tactical warfare drones, but ones that could.
Rosaria Cain 16:05
They have a whole industry these days.
Katherine Haley 17:31
I know, I know. So they are, you know, working in the South China Sea to help build and bring awareness for democracy. Anyway so it’s been this, It’s really about sort of strengthening civil society so that individuals that are affected by those particular ideas can really thrive.
Rosaria Cain 18:16
You seem very much an optimist.
Katherine Haley 18:18
I am.
Rosaria Cain 18:19
And that’s a good thing. Do you ever worry about the future, looking at the kids that can’t read, and people not going to school, civics not being taught?
Katherine Haley 18:30
Yeah.
Rosaria Cain 18:30
Where does that all lead? And plus you have that political background, so you’ve been in the higher echelons of Washington. Yeah. So you’ve seen a really great range of what happens when you have a great education and you use it wisely, and what happens when you don’t?
Katherine Haley 18:46
I would say I am an optimist, and there are moments when I become really concerned. I just ran for a statewide office. I didn’t win the primary.
Rosaria Cain 18:58
I’m really sorry about that.
Katherine Haley 19:00
Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you, Rosaria. Super disappointed with the results, but so grateful for the opportunity. I was just sharing with a friend. I, you know, having a political campaign experience like that, you get to meet the most incredible men and women. These are people that are spending the night in the hospital for their neighbor because they don’t have a loved one nearby. You know they are activating their community to feed vulnerable veterans. You know that they are maybe insecure with their housing or healthcare issues. You meet some incredibly passionate individuals and compassionate individuals, and they care a lot about our state. They care a lot about our country, and they’re knocking on doors, and it’s great. But they also have a very distinct view of what government is and what it is not, and that I think gave me, oh my goodness, we need to do a lot better job of helping individuals understand federalism, sort of the role of the federal government down to the state government, down to the very local government, and who actually has responsibility of each of those things. Most of us don’t know, and I feel like I’m probably one of the more rare individuals that understand those different levels, but I sort of like come away with oh my goodness we have to continue to engage I have to continue to care about my work on the state board of education not because I have all the solutions but there’s a role to play similarly I’m so excited about the organizations I have the honor of serving through my company, because they are doing exactly that.
Katherine Haley 20:46
So I would say there are moments of “oh my goodness, I can’t believe someone just said that” to “okay, there is a way we have we need to link arms and work together.” I think I also would say that the role of family is incredibly important, and for our younger generation or younger listeners who might not have a parent or two-parent household, perhaps there’s mentors in your life that can help pave that way and open those doors. Because having those mentors, having those family members, it creates such an important foundation for which a young person to jump off and thrive.
Rosaria Cain 21:29
When you look at the future, are you scared?
Katherine Haley 21:31
It depends on the day, or it depends on the moment.
Rosaria Cain 21:34
Or the news cycle!
Katherine Haley 21:36
Exactly, you know. There’s moments of I think you know again, like just being coming off this campaign, there was days when I would leave multiple events that day and be so inspired by what individuals are doing, the next generation of kids that are being awarded scholarships, and how they are engaging their communities and what they’re doing, and then there might be the next moment of like, oh my goodness, what is the future? I’m really quite concerned. I think I’m more optimistic than not, particularly if I maybe push away the news cycle and really focus on what’s in front. Probably one of the great joys is going into the field and visiting a school, or going into the field and and touring our different clients and seeing what they’re specifically doing, because that ingenuity, that human spirit, that compassion, I think, is really inspiring, and it gives me great hope for what’s to come.
Rosaria Cain 22:42
It feeds you.
Katherine Haley 22:43
Yeah, it does. That’s a great observation.
Rosaria Cain 22:46
I understand. So becoming a founder, how hard was it? I mean, you were in Washington, and then you went to being a founder, of your own firm. Was it a leap of faith or a scary move or did you leap in with both feet in?
Katherine Haley 23:08
It was all of those things. I think being a founder, there are some that have incredible confidence, and they just know. I hoped, I certainly hoped. You know, I was trading on my reputation, I was trading on the relationships that I had. Like, could I build something that individuals wanted to buy, or whatever I was selling, would they buy it? And I have. It’s only in retrospect. I do have quite a bit of founders in my family going back many generations, individuals that made really big bets and took risks on themselves as well as an idea, and they wanted to fill a hole in a vacuum. And so, in retrospect, it’s like I guess that was part of my history, but I don’t know that I paid attention to it. My dad was a founder and built a successful business, and so, but it’s only been now that I’m like, Dad, what was that like for you? And you worked really hard for a very long time. So, one, it was a big leap. It was a big leap of faith. Would someone trust me? Could I build a team? And could I also relinquish the control? I think that’s a test every single day of allowing others to partner with me in order to execute our mission. And then I think the last part was, could I secure the business? And I’m proud to say that within probably five months we were profitable. By the end of that time, I expanded the company to bring in additional partners that were equitable. They had an equal stake in the company because I felt that was greater value to than me sort of taking a larger share. It was a huge risk. And we have grown, we have contracted, we’ve grown, and at the end of the day, we continue to evolve. But all of it is with that shared mission of serving our key customers, whether that’s a nonprofit, a donor, or a policy initiative that we’re trying to help advance.
Rosaria Cain 25:17
No, well, congratulations!
Katherine Haley 25:19
Thank you.
Rosaria Cain 25:20
That’s a big deal. Was there a specific moment or event that happened that made you become a founder?
Katherine Haley 25:28
I think a couple things. One, I was living and working in Washington D.C. and was working for another organization, and we were going through a pivot, and I think the pivot was in the direction that the board wanted to go, but it also gave me an opportunity to evaluate what did I want to do, how did I want to be in the world, and how did I want to support other individuals or organizations? And it was a great. I always knew I was mission oriented. I should note really quickly when I was leaving Capitol Hill and getting ready to join another organization, I very quickly realized I do not want to be a contract lobbyist. I could do it, probably could do it very well, but I need to have a north star. I need to be part of a team that is all working towards something, and so I was able to jump in and do something.
Rosaria Cain 26:21
Not a hired gun.
Katherine Haley 26:23
I couldn’t be a hired gun unless it was for that specific mission or purpose. And so, the pandemic, I think for many of us, gave us that opportunity to slow down. I was traveling every week somewhere in the country, sometimes multiple places, and I had an opportunity to really stop and slow down and reflect on where I wanted to be, what I wanted to do, and it became clear that it was time to start something new, and it needed to be here at home in Arizona, and so I just ripped the bandaid when I made that decision. About two weeks later, I made an offer on a house, and six weeks later was closing, and a month later I was here and I was off to the races, starting something new. So, and it’s been really hard work, but it’s been unbelievably fulfilling and gratifying to be able to do what I get to do.
Rosaria Cain 27:26
That sounds great. And you’ve always been a leader it sounds like with the positions you’ve had, is it different being a founder? And what do you think makes a good leader?
Katherine Haley 27:39
Being a founder is, I think, different than coming into carrying out something already established. I see this actually quite a bit in the organizations we help launch, and I think it’s in retrospect that you get to evaluate this. You need someone who’s like tenacious. You need someone who is going to think about this and build it every single day. You need someone who’s going to very quickly recognize her own limitations and that the limitations are not negative, but it’s just you don’t have that skill set. And how are you going to meet that need by bringing in other individuals? And that was always sort of my intention, but being able to see it in retrospect, Oak Rose Group, our firm, is what it is because of all the people that have been part of our team. We have been successful because of all those different attributes, and I think a founder is successful when he or she recognizes that, and not and otherwise, it’s gonna be all about you, and when you leave, or you don’t show up that day, or you’re not contributing in some way, it will collapse. And so, yeah, I think that that tenacity, that sense of vision, and also having the wherewithal of when you bring people in, making sure that they have that shared vision, and recognizing quickly when that is unaligned, and doing the difficult and hard thing, and removing that individual because as you’re building towards something, you really need everyone rowing together. Maybe you’re out of sync a little bit, but you eventually need to get together.
Rosaria Cain 29:23
Well, what were the biggest milestones that you were onto something big? It sounds like they came early.
Katherine Haley 29:30
They came early. I would say in my time working in philanthropy, very quickly recognized that you need someone who can help serve as a matchmaker, helping organizations be able to track long-term support, philanthropic support, but also like how are you helping a nonprofit organization to think strategic about how to leverage your board, how do you leverage your staff, how do you leverage your mission and execute it in order to attract that those resources, and then. Similarly, helping donors think through-we have a specific mission or orientation in our grant making. How are we going to translate that into our local community or target regions that we want to have an impact? And so, being able to serve as an ambassador, an interpreter, I think, was really, really important. And also having colleagues in the field and other parts of the country that had that same orientation or those similar skill sets, maybe different elements of it, was really really important. And I think we have been successful in serving clients many times year over year, and some places people come in, and others are doing referrals. It’s been a joy to be able to serve them because we have those experiences and those capabilities.
Rosaria Cain 30:54
Now, your father was obviously a role model, and it sounds like you had a lot of role models in your family going back to all the founders, did you have anybody specifically that served as a role model or mentor as you were taking this path?
Katherine Haley 31:08
I wish I would say yes. I think I looked to my friends that made big bets and sort of thought to myself, well, if they can do it, then I can do it.
Rosaria Cain 31:17
Right, and plus they’re a great support system.
Rosaria Cain 31:32
Yeah.
Katherine Haley 31:33
But yeah, I had some great friends along the way that were either in their late 30s, 40s, made some big leaps, and they too made big bets on themselves, and so being able to process with them, I think, was really really great.
Rosaria Cain 31:50
So as you’re doing this, and you’re obviously wildly successful, do you miss politics? You must a little because you ran for office.
Katherine Haley 31:58
I just ran for office. Yes.
Rosaria Cain 32:00
Do you miss the halls of power in Washington?
Katherine Haley 32:04
I read the news and listen to podcasts, and I am always in the political space, I guess. And I was just on a phone call with some great friends that are working on an initiative, getting an update. There’s elements I sort of miss the camaraderie. I would say my time on Capitol Hill, even during I was there from 2002 to the end of 2015, and even then there was some incredible contentious debates and deep animosity toward the different sides, Republican and Democrat. But we could still collaborate and get things done. I would say some of my greatest policy successes working on behalf of the men and women I got to serve was because I had relationships in Republican and Democratic offices, and we were able to figure out if it’s school choice for kids in Washington D.C. or helping to, you know, make sure that individuals in the developing world had access to life-saving treatment to combat HIV/AIDS or promoting international religious freedom.
Katherine Haley 33:13
I had relationships in offices all across the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate, all with the goal of helping to advance those policies and build coalitions off the hill to be able to successfully achieve that. I don’t know that is valued right now, and that to me makes me very sad because that is where you get the most buy-in and where you also get long-term impact. And so I think right now I’m sort of like, oh gosh, our leaders, whether it’s you know Mike Johnson as the Speaker of the House, or Hakeem Jeffries for the Minority Leader of the Democrats, or Senator John Thune, Majority Leader in the U.S. Senate, or Chuck Schumer, the minority leader for the Democrats, like they have really tough jobs, and I would say my observation is we have probably more members that are interested in performative politics. They really like their podcasts, and they like you know beating their chests, and we have fewer that are willing to understand what the role of government is and why they were specifically elected to actually change, whether through policy appropriations or otherwise. They haven’t. I don’t know that they fully understand that.
Rosaria Cain 34:38
Do you wonder what happened to the moderates? And this is really both parties.
Katherine Haley 34:43
On both sides. I would say yes.
Rosaria Cain 34:45
Where did they go?
Katherine Haley 34:46
I think they’re there, but I think they’re like a silent majority. Unfortunately.
Rosaria Cain 34:51
Do you think they’re a majority?
Katherine Haley 34:53
I mean, just looking at voter registration in Arizona, we have more than 30% probably 35% 36% of registered voters in Arizona are independent.
Rosaria Cain 35:03
I guess independents would classify as moderates. I mean, because they were in between and they could go either way. Right?
Katherine Haley 35:09
And some are disaffected Democrats, some are disaffected Republicans, and I would say, you know, they might be more conservative on a fiscal issue, but maybe socially liberal on something else, or maybe they like more socially they like big spending, but might be more conservative on social issues. You know, they might or they might actually be really conservative, but they aren’t a fan of the direction of the political parties and don’t feel that they are being heard, or they might be conservative in that the role of government is not a policy, a populist government, meaning like we go to the whims of the majority or the loudest speaker. But you know how do you build a coalition that’s slow to change and to represent all the views and perspectives? So, yeah, I think the independent voter is probably much louder, but also quite quiet.
Rosaria Cain 36:13
And probably you’re right. Probably the only voice of the moderate.
Katherine Haley 36:18
Yeah.
Rosaria Cain 36:18
Could be found there.
Katherine Haley 36:20
Yeah, and I think perhaps even for the moderate is because it is an interesting coalition. Any single voice wouldn’t necessarily be representative of all of them. So I think there was an effort to make the independent registered voters the no labels party here in Arizona, and there was quite a pushback. They’re like, “I’m not no labels.
Rosaria Cain 36:45
The aesthetics of that is just terrible.
Katherine Haley 36:48
I know.
Rosaria Cain 36:51
Would you be interested in giving the current administration a grade?
Katherine Haley 36:55
I think it would depend on the issue. I think I’ve been quite concerned about what’s happened in their foreign policy. You know, anytime you go into any other country with a goal, you need to have a plan. And I feel like you know, any day we have a new plan for Iran, and that gives me great concern because it has so many different ramifications. I think the president has come around a little bit on Ukraine. You know, the fight that’s happening between Russia and Ukraine has given me great concern. I think another country invading. I mean, some would say we drop bombs on Iran. So, but Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. I think we should give incredible props to Ukraine for beating the odds. I mean, they’ve been at war for four years. They are still there.
Rosaria Cain 37:42
They are still there.
Katherine Haley 37:47
And they have constantly innovated. And they are, I think, very soon folks are going to be looking, if they’re not already, to Ukraine for future diplomacy. Like, how do you fight a modern day war? But then the economic issues I think have been pretty volatile, largely because of what’s happening abroad. I think of issues, I think DOGE didn’t go very well.
Rosaria Cain 38:14
That was a PR disaster. I don’t know that it was a bad idea in principle.
Katherine Haley 38:19
Yeah.
Rosaria Cain 38:19
But it was a policy disaster.
Katherine Haley 38:22
I had friends that were in different departments and agencies, and for those that were able to protect their department of agency from sort of the blunt force of chance, and were actually able to use a scalpel and make pretty significant now lasting changes, I think it worked very, very, very well. For those where the whole departments or agencies were just fired and then later came back and were put back in place because of a court order? I don’t think that that was very effective. I don’t know that was very effective. I know that others would probably disagree with me, so I think in some ways there’s been some bright spots, but I think there’s been some other areas that have been of great concern to me.
Rosaria Cain 39:13
Have any predictions on the next election?
Katherine Haley 39:15
No. Which one? Our state or our federal election?
Rosaria Cain 39:19
Federal election.
Katherine Haley 39:20
I don’t. It’s two years away. I mean, there’s some great podcasts locally. I was listening to Dark Money, Light or Light Beer, Dark Money. So if you’ve heard of that one, and they were making some predictions, and you know, I think the natural individuals in the party for Republicans anyway would point to JD Vance, but I also think Marco Rubio has done an incredible job. Those are the two names I hear all the time. But it’s also two years from now, and there were lots of names that were being spoken in 2015, 2014. 2015, former governors and such, and Donald Trump got in the race, and he ended up being the nominee. And I don’t know; many people thought that he would be the nominee.
Rosaria Cain 40:09
Still remember the escalator scene.
Katherine Haley 40:12
Exactly.
Rosaria Cain 40:12
It’s embedded in my head. I think I can close my eyes and see it.
Katherine Haley 40:16
I know
Rosaria Cain 40:17
And I thought that’s a publicity stunt. That’s never going to happen.
Katherine Haley 40:22
Oh, and people talk about it. They say when he came down the elevator, escalator, escalator, that was the moment for them. But you know, I think for it’ll be interesting for Democrats. Like I think our two senators have talked about it. I think their backgrounds are certainly interesting and will probably receive quite a bit of scrutiny, and I hope that’s the case. But then there was a recent poll in New Hampshire where Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was sort of the top vote getter in New Hampshire, and so I think for Democrats they’re going to have to really contend this year with what does democratic socialism mean?
Rosaria Cain 41:02
Can socialism win? Do you think in the general?
Katherine Haley 41:07
I don’t think so, but I don’t know. I mean, I think for some, it’s socialism as it maybe is perceived.
Rosaria Cain 41:16
Well, that’s true. It’s certainly getting a different interpretation.
Katherine Haley 41:20
I think, if you ask, particularly a young person, or frankly, any, they’re like, “Well, that sounds good”, and you’re like, “But how does that actually like true socialism? How does that play out?” And so I think we’ll see. I mean, Michigan has their primary today, and they’ve got probably a more traditional Democrat rated running against a candidate that is I am part of the the Democratic Social Alliance, and so we’ll see today what do Michigan, Michiganders, want for their Democratic candidate.
Rosaria Cain 41:53
Now this man is not an expert, but I was reading what Kelsey Grammer was saying a few days ago, and I just happened to see it, but I thought his point was interesting. His point was the reason why kids are voting socialist and even communist is because they don’t have a sense of history. And I talk to your point about civics and how the states require civics and what an important thing knowing your history means and how it can change the trajectory of a political movement or a people or a country. It just made me think of that.
Katherine Haley 42:29
I think you’re right. I think if you, you know, I grew up in the ’80s and the ’90s, and so for me, whether it was the USSR and then now the former Soviet Union, and you know, you have like a real bunker in our school, and nobody knew exactly where it was. But you know, my high school was built during the height of the Cold War, right? And so I remember those days. Yeah, don’t like we didn’t have to deal with that, right? You know, but if you kind of like, even if it’s a rumor and you’re sort of joking about it, you have at least a sense.
Rosaria Cain 43:08
There’s some tense.
Katherine Haley 43:10
You’re like, oh right, oh this other idea. These are the consequences of these other ideas.
Rosaria Cain 43:16
Well nuclear wars are pretty heavy. A pretty heavy consequence.
Katherine Haley 43:20
Seriously.
Rosaria Cain 43:21
People were seriously afraid.
Katherine Haley 43:23
Yes, so I think a lack of understanding history and a lack of understanding of what was and almost a romanticization of the ideas. I think it’s of great concern.
Rosaria Cain 43:43
I do too. Well, I really enjoyed having you on the show. Just a couple of things. So, what do you do when you’re not working? You’re many different things.
Katherine Haley 43:53
Yeah.
Rosaria Cain 43:54
Education, Company. Yeah. What do you do? Running for office. Yeah.
Katherine Haley 43:58
Yeah.
Rosaria Cain 43:58
What do you do? Running for office.
Katherine Haley 44:00
Yeah right. Right. My poor dad, he was my unofficial campaign manager and drove me across the state and that was such a gift. It was just a great opportunity to hear stories that I’ve never heard before. But my poor dad. I’m like, what are you doing with your time now that you’re not driving me around, so it’s a good question. What am I doing? I play a good amount of tennis. That’s cool. I love playing tennis. I used to run a lot, but I’ve sort of traded that a bit for playing tennis. I spend time with my family and my friends, and I enjoy traveling and skiing in the winter time and reading interesting books, I just dusted off. It sounds super wonky, but I was like, I’m not sure if I ever read Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment. So I’m reading.
Rosaria Cain 44:51
Oh, that’s so boring.
Katherine Haley 44:53
It’s so boring.
Rosaria Cain 44:54
Oh man, I remember trying to read that. I still have it in my bookcase.
Katherine Haley 44:59
I’m actually I’m a big fan of Audible and the voices having the different voices.
Rosaria Cain 45:06
Is that better?
Katherine Haley 45:07
At first I was like, oh my gosh, and now I am like captivated.
Rosaria Cain 45:11
Okay. Maybe I have to give it more of a chance.
Katherine Haley 45:14
It is long. It is very long.
Rosaria Cain 45:17
Anna Karenina.
Katherine Haley 45:19
I haven’t gone to that. And again, I’m like, did I? So there’s some of these classics I’m like, did I ever read that? Like, same thing for Odyssey. Have I read the Odyssey? One of my colleagues is reading it.
Rosaria Cain 45:31
I saw the play.
Katherine Haley 45:32
Yeah, and now we can go see the movie.
Rosaria Cain 45:35
Right.
Katherine Haley 45:35
So we can see Matt Damon. So I would say, yeah. I just sort of-it’s about community. I’m really active in my church and been involved in different activities there.
Rosaria Cain 45:38
And so you’re living your life is full, balanced life.
Katherine Haley 45:53
Yeah, life is really full
Rosaria Cain 45:54
Who would’ve thought.
Katherine Haley 45:55
I know, I know.
Rosaria Cain 45:57
Now, we’re gonna finish it with this question. What about you would surprise people? Tell me something nobody knows. Is there something nobody knows? I guess.
Katherine Haley 46:08
I don’t know about nobody knows. I would say, I think what people would surprise, like I’m an outgoing, affirming, optimistic individual. I would say it’s largely driven by my faith, I would say I’m a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Jesus. My faith is what motivates and drives me. And I was able to participate in a fellowship a couple years ago, and we were going around. It was around education and education reform, and I just sort of put it out there. I was like, I honestly don’t think I would care about any of these things if it were not for my faith, and I see how that manifests in the work I get to do, why I care about policy issues, why I ran for office, why I care about my family. I am otherwise too competitive and two like hard charging.
Rosaria Cain 47:03
Well, if you made it in Washington.
Katherine Haley 47:05
Yeah. But I would say I think the thing that drives and motivates me is my faith, and it is what grounds me and reminds me that I cannot do this by myself. And so that would be my takeaway.
Rosaria Cain 47:19
Well said, and thank you for a really nice conversation.
Katherine Haley 47:23
Thank you so much.
Rosaria Cain 47:24
We’ll end it on that note.
Katherine Haley 47:25
Thank you.
Rosaria Cain 47:26
Optimism for everybody.
Katherine Haley 47:28
Likewise. Yeah. Thank you. What an honor.
Rosaria Cain 47:30
Thanks.